Crowd Control.

[Kellzz]

Stuns, Mezz, mind control, disorients, disable, so on. Crowd control has been a staple in all MMOs. But regardless of the CC being used, it all reverts to one basic outcome; the inability for the player(s) affected to control their character.

It seems now, CC is becoming the pseudo "I win" button. DAOC had spells that could render a player useless for upwards of 70 seconds. (Before resists, and the spell could be broken). Along with stuns that could last for 10 seconds (could not be broken, dispelled, and was not effected by resists).

WoW... fear. Nuff said.

Now, being able to affect reload times, movement speed, radar function, etc. is good. I am all for slowing down a player, but not totally removing a gamer from play for half a minute.

Crowd control should be about inconveniencing a player, not about the player standing there while his avatar is useless.

[SoulMiner]

i would be fearful to if stuck in my mech. (open to attack for 30sec)

lol my course of action would be to open the canopy and start fireing my side arm at the aporching enemy.

[Borathian]

interesting idea, but what would be the general idea behind it?  I could see this working if vehicles, aircraft, and mechs were piloted through screens in an enclosed cockpit, but there not, and as such anything like what you describe would need to be something that directly effects the pilot(s) of the craft.  Perhaps the effects should not come directly from something another player//NPC does but rather a side effect of what they do, such as a concussion, heat exhaustion, smoke filing the cockpit, etc. basically things that happen randomly as a result of the actions of combat, however this is not to say that there aren't weapons or equipment that increase the likelihood of such things happening AKA high impact weapons, heat/plasma rounds, flame throwers and the like.

another interesting aspect would be countermeasures to such ailments, tho such things would have both good and bad effect, such as an improved shock resistant helmet or body suite staving off concussions but allowing the pilot to suffer from heat exhaustion more easily, tho such things need not only pertain to clothing but also extra equipment within the craft like cockpit cooling units, tho obviously such equipment would also use up energy reducing the crafts effective combat time even if its only by a small amount.

[McDonagh]

I think any Crowd Control like effects should be limited to basically saying "you're going to die if you don't get the hell out of here" type events.  Crowd control in any aircraft would most likely be fatal considering you have to have control at all times or you go careening into the ground.  Stun effects would have to rely on EMP or electric shock so it would probably kill screens on top of controls if it were at all accurate so it would make energy weapons almost unstoppable.   Lets face it though, being CCed is never fun. 

[Borathian]

I think any Crowd Control like effects should be limited to basically saying "you're going to die if you don't get the hell out of here" type events.  Crowd control in any aircraft would most likely be fatal considering you have to have control at all times or you go careening into the ground.  Stun effects would have to rely on EMP or electric shock so it would probably kill screens on top of controls if it were at all accurate so it would make energy weapons almost unstoppable.   Lets face it though, being CCed is never fun. 

some times it is more tactically sound to put a craft out of commission than waist the ammo destroying it making "crowed control" effects more useful and divers in application than they might first appear, so simply reducing it to  ""you're going to die if you don't get the hell out of here" type events" removes a huge array of tactical choices and game play options, the more of which you have the better and more fulfilling game you have.

also the kind of force it would take to injure an aircraft pilot would most definitely destroy the craft before effecting the pilot, and even on the slim chance that it didn't one could always use the ejection system.

why do stun effect have to rely on EMP and electric shocks?  even today military hardware is shielded form EMP and protected from electric shock, and as this game is in the future I'm fairly positive that EMP and electric shocks are a non issue, and even if they were, the second such weapons came into being you can be damn sure that the corporations would find a way to at least lessen the effect of such weapons, so I find the idea of such weapons being unstoppable a bit laughable.

I don't mean to be mean, but the single fastest fields of technological advancement are and most likely will always be those that pertain to warfare, and as such nothing is unstoppable for long. 

[McDonagh]

some times it is more tactically sound to put a craft out of commission than waist the ammo destroying it making "crowed control" effects more useful and divers in application than they might first appear, so simply reducing it to  ""you're going to die if you don't get the hell out of here" type events" removes a huge array of tactical choices and game play options, the more of which you have the better and more fulfilling game you have.

also the kind of force it would take to injure an aircraft pilot would most definitely destroy the craft before effecting the pilot, and even on the slim chance that it didn't one could always use the ejection system.

why do stun effect have to rely on EMP and electric shocks?  even today military hardware is shielded form EMP and protected from electric shock, and as this game is in the future I'm fairly positive that EMP and electric shocks are a non issue, and even if they were, the second such weapons came into being you can be damn sure that the corporations would find a way to at least lessen the effect of such weapons, so I find the idea of such weapons being unstoppable a bit laughable.

I don't mean to be mean, but the single fastest fields of technological advancement are and most likely will always be those that pertain to warfare, and as such nothing is unstoppable for long.  

I think i was sleep deprived when i typed that. . .

Anyways, I was thinking how they said that people are going to be able to target specific pieces of mechs like the legs or limbs.   If that was implemented fully, Crowd control effects would kind of be somewhat pointless if you could just blast off a leg actuator or blow up a weapon rack, creating a CC like effect.  Hell, someone might grab one of those 400mm guns and knock a lighter mech flat on its back.   I am fairly certain that there won't be any magic stuns or sheeping though .

Also, i was reading through that mech construction guide thing and it said something about computer viruses(although not imediately).  Man that would be nasty CC. 

[Borathian]

sleep deprivation strikes again...the fiend I know exactly how you feel man

yes, it's very true blowing off limbs and causing explosions would be very effective, however that's not really the point.  Basically the more options even to do the same things you have the better game you are more likely to have, as its more about having the option to do things rather than actually doing them that makes a game with more options more fulfilling. plus it gives lighter mechs with lighter weapons more tactical options other than running around like a chicken with its head cut of plinking away at an opponent.

[McDonagh]

sleep deprivation strikes again. . . the fiend I know exactly how you feel man

yes, it's very true blowing off limbs and causing explosions would be very effective, however that's not really the point.   Basically the more options even to do the same things you have the better game you are more likely to have, as its more about having the option to do things rather than actually doing them that makes a game with more options more fulfilling.  plus it gives lighter mechs with lighter weapons more tactical options other than running around like a chicken with its head cut of plinking away at an opponent. 

Yeah, light mechs running around like that may be funny but it doesn't make for very interesting gameplay.  They would most likely have to use their small size and speed to pop in and out of cover, and they could probably make much better use of jump jets/boosters to not only evade fire but to attack as well.  DEATH FROM ABOVE!

I keep thinking of a small mech jumping and latching onto a bigger mech and ripping the armor off of it.

[Borathian]

well wile I would agree that speed is the greatest defence of lighter mechs normally, the addition of turrets in this game may make that advantage very minimal, as even if a large mech is rather slow bringing its main guns to bare against a small fast opponent with a significant speed advantage, that advantage may be drastically reduced if that same large mech has turrets that can quickly acquire and fire upon the lighter mech.  Making such debilitating weaponry and equipment a very good idea to add onto those smaller mechs even in lieu of weapons if there in a group, which they most likely will be, as you could have one or some smaller mechs run in close fire off its/there debilitating weapons/equipment and get the hell out of there, perhaps even before the turrets have item to fire upon them, or at least taking minimal damage.

so basically with the addition of turrets that may be faster than a mech main guns, pilots of small fast mechs may no longer be able to simply rely on there speed any more.

I know elementals aren't mechs but in the short lived mechwarrior cartoon series the clans employed the little buggers to latch onto and cut apart inner sphere mechs, which is kind of like what you described. I think you can still find the episodes on youtube.com if you want to check them out.

[McDonagh]

well wile I would agree that speed is the greatest defence of lighter mechs normally, the addition of turrets in this game may make that advantage very minimal, as even if a large mech is rather slow bringing its main guns to bare against a small fast opponent with a significant speed advantage, that advantage may be drastically reduced if that same large mech has turrets that can quickly acquire and fire upon the lighter mech.   Making such debilitating weaponry and equipment a very good idea to add onto those smaller mechs even in lieu of weapons if there in a group, which they most likely will be, as you could have one or some smaller mechs run in close fire off its/there debilitating weapons/equipment and get the hell out of there, perhaps even before the turrets have item to fire upon them, or at least taking minimal damage.

so basically with the addition of turrets that may be faster than a mech main guns, pilots of small fast mechs may no longer be able to simply rely on there speed any more.

I know elementals aren't mechs but in the short lived mechwarrior cartoon series the clans employed the little buggers to latch onto and cut apart inner sphere mechs, which is kind of like what you described.  I think you can still find the episodes on youtube.  if you want to check them out.

Never knew they had a cartoon series for that, but i remember seeing something like it also on a trailer for MechAssault 2.   I never had an Xbox so I  never got a chance to play it.  I played Mechwarrior 4 in all its circle-strafing glory though .  From what i remember reading from the mech construction guide on the main site, turrets have a limited movement range with a number of blind spots, especially when moving up and down.  Turrets seem to more good when used in an anti-missile role than trying to shoot at light mechs since missiles have a tendency fly straight rather than exploiting blind spots.   

On a side note, I keep thinking it would be fun to see a light mech fire a 400mm cannon(or 2) at the ground just to see how far it would be sent flying.

[Hamilton]

Crowd Control for Vehicles, Mechs and Aircraft are most likely going to be minimal.  As mentioned above, Computer virus (warfare) will be in use, which could affect an area (broadcast range).  But the effect when used for an area, would be limited than if used as a specific target (game balance).  Crowd Control is mostly going to be of Area Denial, for example mines.  Denying an area for the enemy to manuever into, forcing them to move somewhere else.  Immobilizing, will be against individual targets and not against mass targets (example: targeting legs, wheels, tracks).


Crowd Control for Avatars and Creatures...  similar in that area denial will be used, but also area dispersion (example: tear gas).

For every method of attack, there will be counter-meaures (ex: tear gas = gas mask or sealed helmet/suit/armor).  Crowd Control capabilities are unlikely to be effective against military units, just as in the real world. 



Unless players want conventional Crowd Control capabilities as done in the majority of MMO's...



As for mind control... Official Answer: No comment.

[Borathian]

Crowd Control for Vehicles, Mechs and Aircraft are most likely going to be minimal.  As mentioned above, Computer virus (warfare) will be in use, which could affect an area (broadcast range).  But the effect when used for an area, would be limited than if used as a specific target (game balance).  Crowd Control is mostly going to be of Area Denial, for example mines.  Denying an area for the enemy to manuever into, forcing them to move somewhere else.  Immobilizing, will be against individual targets and not against mass targets (example: targeting legs, wheels, tracks).


Crowd Control for Avatars and Creatures...  similar in that area denial will be used, but also area dispersion (example: tear gas).

For every method of attack, there will be counter-meaures (ex: tear gas = gas mask or sealed helmet/suit/armor).  Crowd Control capabilities are unlikely to be effective against military units, just as in the real world. 



Unless players want conventional Crowd Control capabilities as done in the majority of MMO's...



As for mind control... Official Answer: No comment.

what do you consider as being "conventional Crowd Control"?

and not so much for crowd control purposes but rather simply broadening the spectrum of tactics people may employ I think it would be nice to have ways other than just area denial for crowd control and the like, as I don't know about others but I really enjoy planing tactics and things like that, so IMO the more ways to do things even the same things the better as it gives people like me more ideas to play around with when exploring tactical options.

[Hamilton]

By conventional Crowd Control I would mean those specials or abilities that would be similar to (but not limited to):
- Rooted (immobile)
- Dizzy (can't do jack)
- Fear (run away)
- Knocked Down (I've fallen and I can't get up)
- Wall of Something (temporary blocking barrier)


For example, I have a Laser Pistol.  For me to make someone "Dizzy" with a Laser Pistol, I would think is impossible.  But if a person became Dizzy (disoriented) from sustaining a head injury from my attack, then that can be possible.  What I am trying to say, is that some of the forms of Crowd Control (or states) are caused from the effect of the injuries, but not from the action made of the attacker.  But that such states cannot be made by actions or professions alone.

I'll admit there can be exception, for example a knock-out punch.  To knock someone out with minimal damage.

[McDonagh]

I still want to see the one hit wonder lightmech that falls over on the first shot fired.

[Hamilton]

I guess that will be a 50 ton walker, of which about 27 tons is for the cannon.  It would have a Hull, four legs and a large cannon (I build a Scorpion Figurine once for BattleTech, using a Long Tom barrel in place of the SRM-6, with a struct from the PBC).  I guess it would look similar... though with the rules, you know, I never have tried it...