Loot distribution. Can we players be trusted to act accordingly?

[Kellzz]

Nope.


The recent drama concerning an item in WOW proves this.
For reference: a high end raiding guild let a rogue have a ledgendary bow instead of one of the two hunters. Is it fair? nope. but the leader is... well the leader and can run his raids and guild any way he wants.
But players whom this affects in no way shape or form, feel that they were wronged anyway by the actions of someone on another server.

How will loot distribution be handeled in FOA? /roll? randomly distributed?


or will all players involved receive the item? (this could seriously devalue items such as alien artifacts)


The problem is, if everything is fair, Items quickly lose their godly status, and it also goes against the 'no easy mode' stance Wardog has taken.
If players are left to decide who gets what, get out the popcorn. Days of our lives couldn't produce drama that good.

[Deft]

If players are left to decide who gets what, get out the popcorn. Days of our lives couldn't produce drama that good.

Agreed.. it can end up being omg I need that Drop for my Epic Vorpal small lazor of LEETNESS

I would think that need before greed roll system that actually reads classes and arch types. Like a fully specked mechwarrior would not be rolling on a crafting item.

/shrug 

[Hamilton]

I had recently seen a short video Zero Punctuation at The Escapist.  This particular one was about Age of Conan.  Although I have and never will play AoC (because I do, then I'm not working on FoA), I did have to agree of the mention of where AoC/FunCom wants to make each individual player special, such as with the Public School System.  This does seem to be the trend with the MMO sector, to provide each individual user with the equal amount of fun as any other user.  Which in reality (real world) though it is nice to feel special, often we're not treat as such. 

The example in the video was showing and telling of how one user can feel special and proud of completing a quest; only to then later see everyone else doing the same and having the same items.  So then everyone becomes clones of each other, telling of the same stories and experiences, having less teamwork and virtually no feeling of Esprit de Corps with a group or organization.  The counter point was that MMO's should provide the individual user as feeling small in a large world, with the sense of being a vital part of an organization.

Which is what I do agree with.  Though of course don't want to be a MMO that mirrors real life, or the MMO will not be fun...


So where am I going with this?
- Everyone is not entitled to the same item looted (no loot/salvage duplication)

Rules governing Loot/Salvage Rights by Groups is decided by the Group Leader.  The Group Leader determines which of the following:
- Random Roll
- Leader's choice of who gets it or leader can horde it
- Group Order (The ranking of the Group's organization)

So when a player first joins a group, that player should ask how the looting/salvaging is being done.  In case of the Leader's Choice, all players are going to have to trust the Leader in making the right or fair decision.

[Sturm Kintaro]

Drama = bad.  I've played enough EVE to know that all that BS does nothing be be draining on a playerbase, and serve as nothing but an all you can eat buffet to the forum trolls who need such things to survive

Loot will always be a sticky item, no matter how it is implemented.  If it's a mission based system and only 1 player of the 5 player "team" can get the required item to complete the mission, 99% of the time every player will be looking out for themselves first, and you get cries of ninja-looting and self-serving-ism (I know that's not a word... but darnit it should be).  Going the other way a-la EQ2 and some of the other systems out there, if you kill NPC X, then everyone gets the item (those who don't want EZ-Mode Mechs will be upset).

I think the game's design will affect this in 2 ways:

1) One Shard, Nowhere to Hide -  Basically people who roll a character are stuck here.  They cannot go around being a PITA (Pain In The A$$), ninja-looting, being a jerk, and then pay the $25.00 fee and transfer off server, or the same $25.00 fee to get a name change from the game company.  A lot of companies love it because it's a great free revenue stream for them with very little work needed.  Some copy & paste, or push a few buttons to let someone rename their char, and they can reap the profits.

       In many games (UO, EQ, EVE) your name is who you are.  You gain a reputation as a player, and that reputation sticks, no matter what.  I can't even begin to count the # of people I know who in EQ back when raiding was everything burned themselves by ninja-looting and couldn't get into raids pretty much ever again.  So they had to roll new characters and PRAY that no one figured out that Joe-Suck-Warrior rolled a Monk.  That alone will stop some of this behavior.  If you want to get into "Top Flight Merc Corp", the biggest independent corp that's going to be on the cutting edge, they're going to look very hard at who they accept, and if you're known as a griefer or ninja-looter, odds are very high you're not going to get into that top tier.  Also, if they are such a jerk, odds are their life expectancy out in the world won't be long, as people will just kill them as retribution.  Don't forget that this isn't WoW - 15g isn't going to get all your gear back.  Your 'Mech goes boom, you're gonna be hurtin for a while.

2) This will be a Group-Based Game.  Corps will have a hard time recruiting folks, and they're going to want to keep the good players.  Shafting them over loot drops will be a surefire way to ensure those corps aren't long for this world.

I would reccommend that 2 features be available for in game loot distribution:

Single Group -  At full group formation, or when the group is ready to roll out a window pops up:

"If any items are to drop during this group session, they will be awarded by:

A) Round-Robin style Loot
B) /Random Roll for EACH Item, With a One Item Per Person Limit Until ALL Group Members receive an Item
C) A Loot Leader will be Designated for this Party to assign Loot.

Please make your selection, you have 30 seconds"

This makes it LOUD and clear up front exactly what method is going to be used.  If players do not like the choice, they can leave right then and there and cut a lot of the fights.

Multi-Group- At full group formation, or when the groups are ready to roll out a window pops up for each group:

"If any items are to drop during this Task Force session, they will be awarded by:

A) Round-Robin style Loot
B) /Random Roll for EACH Item, With a One Item Per Person Limit until ALL Task Force Members have received an item
C) A Loot Council of One Member Per Group will be Designated for this Task Force to assign Loot.

Make it clear up front, and players will have ZERO reason to complain... unless they can't read.  Then hey, it's their fault.

Someone has to be the brave one to risk the flames to put the idea on the table.

[Kellzz]

If it's a mission based system and only 1 player of the 5 player "team" can get the required item to complete the mission, 99% of the time every player will be looking out for themselves first, and you get cries of ninja-looting and self-serving-ism.

Im surpised no other developer has tried to fix this common problem

A group goes somewhere, all players have quest X. Boss fight ensues and player 3 gets the quest item. this has since been solved with all players getting the boss head or whatever, however there are certain bosses that drop ONE quest item that only ONE person can turn in. For this scenario, i would propose that those who wish to be credited with this quest all be present AT THE QUEST PERSON when the head/sword/loin cloth of whoever is turned in. That way everyone gets credit, and those who are lazy and think "Eh, i just stay on this continent while the other 30 bums turn it in for me," miss out.
Think of the Onyxia encounter in WoW. Once you slay the dragon, the head drops. however only ONE person can win it. Does not make much sense when the person who won the head turns it in and im screaming, jumping up and down next to them saying "I HELPED TOO!" all those who participated should get credit.

One Shard, Nowhere to Hide -  Basically people who roll a character are stuck here.  They cannot go around being a PITA (Pain In The A$$), ninja-looting, being a jerk, and then pay the $25.00 fee and transfer off server, or the same $25.00 fee to get a name change from the game company.  A lot of companies love it because it's a great free revenue stream for them with very little work needed.  Some copy & paste, or push a few buttons to let someone rename their char, and they can reap the profits.

I actually support this feature, due to it does make a company money (Yes, i am one of those who support companies actually making money! *gasp*). Granted, there are some social implications but thats for the player doing the greifing to worry about.
A simple way for FOA to implement this would be to tie it into the game's legal system as in the real world. Player A puts in for a name change, pays the fee, and after a 2-3 day waiting period, its done.
Of course, to prevent abuse though, a limit would need to be imposed. Perhaps one name change per generation? (If that is how the death system is going to work).



Back to EVE. (Popular reference item isnt it? :p )
Most items looted go straight to the corp. Those in charge of logistics and supply deal with it and its either sold, or placed into storage for the corp to request access to.
This seemed to work. If the uber cannon of T3 godlyness dropped off some poor soul, it was generally saved in the corp hangar and given to the player(s) that could first off use the item, second not only use the item, but use it efficiently (there is a big difference in being able to just use an item and able to USE the item) and those who have been around long enough that they have proven they will put it to good use, rather than throw it up on the market.

Which gives me an idea.

Can clans/guilds/whatever be given the ability to mark their items? In case someone decides it a good idea to sell the items they have access to instead of putting them toward their intended use?

just a simple mouse over and the tool tip shows if its been marked or not. (These markings could be removed by a player with the proper auth. should said item be decided to be sold legitimately)
Or just cut out the middle man all together and all items marked are no sell no trade untill such restrictions are lifted by those with the proper permissions.

[Borathian]

Back to EVE. (Popular reference item isnt it? :p )
Most items looted go straight to the corp. Those in charge of logistics and supply deal with it and its either sold, or placed into storage for the corp to request access to.
This seemed to work. If the uber cannon of T3 godlyness dropped off some poor soul, it was generally saved in the corp hangar and given to the player(s) that could first off use the item, second not only use the item, but use it efficiently (there is a big difference in being able to just use an item and able to USE the item) and those who have been around long enough that they have proven they will put it to good use, rather than throw it up on the market.

Which gives me an idea.

Can clans/guilds/whatever be given the ability to mark their items? In case someone decides it a good idea to sell the items they have access to instead of putting them toward their intended use?

just a simple mouse over and the tool tip shows if its been marked or not. (These markings could be removed by a player with the proper auth. should said item be decided to be sold legitimately)
Or just cut out the middle man all together and all items marked are no sell no trade untill such restrictions are lifted by those with the proper permissions.

I like that idea, it saves me the time of having to greef the persons pants off for their greed and stupidity.

[Beovvulf]

Am I missing something here?

Aren't those in the strike team that just killed the mech/boss/whatever that drops the item in question working both together and for the good of the corporation?  Every MMO that I have played in, the guilds have all adopted a need before greed philosophy.  This has worked wonderfully and has promoted working together so that everyone acquires the items that they need, eventually.

Eventually, promotes that guild/corporation membership quest together whenever possible so that the items are acquired for everyone.  Besides, from what I am reading about FoA the same bosses/mechs won't be around to kill multiple times so getting the same loot drops will never be guaranteed.  Also, in the case of PvP you are not going to be going against the same mech configuration every time and due to the damage inflicted different items will survive the battle each time.

Everything I am reading here says I am out for myself and screw everyone else.  Am I expecting too much from PvP players?  Perhaps that sounds harsh but that seems to be what I am reading as the concern here.

The EVE example is right on the money in my opinion.  Items were given to those that were trusted,  needed them and could use them effectively OR at the least would not sell the item off.

[D3athsong]

Maybe i dont fully understand the situation, but wont players be able to keep a fair balance by force?  I mean, if 5 people go out on a raid, or attack, or whatever youwant to call it, they will split items gained evenly.  If one person keeps taking all of the good equipment gained and leaving low end stuff for the other 4, whats to stop them from getting pissed off and turning on that 1 player?  1 high end mech is still no match for 4 mechs working together. 

[Kellzz]

Lets look at the most popular MMO right now, World of Warcraft. And compare the player behavior to Those in EVE.

The loot in WoW is coveted by all. Same as in EVE. But there is one huge difference here. Community. Your actions in WoW hardly matter at all. Join a group and ninja a few items, you are kicked out. Your name is forgotten within an hour and no one cares anymore. Try a stunt like that in EVE, and your name is not only blacklisted in the corp you just screwed over, but if the corp had enough connections, you could possibly have effectively removed yourself from half the game.
Grouping in WoW is a whole different animal than in a sandbox type game. In WoW you group with random people not caring about the loot. If you lost you just ran with another group 10 min later. in EVE, grouping is (almost always) done with trusted individuals or those within your alliance. Due to EVE being such a tight-knit community, players are more apt to watch out for each other and wont hesitate to expose someone for being an ass.
As i expect FOA to be similar in terms of community, the actions of one will be felt by many.

Maybe i dont fully understand the situation, but wont players be able to keep a fair balance by force?  I mean, if 5 people go out on a raid, or attack, or whatever youwant to call it, they will split items gained evenly.  If one person keeps taking all of the good equipment gained and leaving low end stuff for the other 4, whats to stop them from getting pissed off and turning on that 1 player?  1 high end mech is still no match for 4 mechs working together. 

The squad/lance/formation leader will have rule over loot distribution.

Rules governing Loot/Salvage Rights by Groups is decided by the Group Leader. 

So the group leader will take sole responsibility for their actions.
Also, a group being able to turn on someone within their own corp, i dont think will be possible.(except in the arena).
I dont think the devs are intending players from the same faction to wage open war upon themselves. In my opinion; kinda defeats the point of factions if that were the case
 (however, the mention of civil war, and corprate in-fighting could mean players can)

[Hamilton]

Make it clear up front, and players will have ZERO reason to complain... unless they can't read.  Then hey, it's their fault.

A good discussion here.  I do like the idea of a pop-up window, which is to be displayed as a player joins the group. 

While I would support an "everyone for him/herself" style and let trust be earned, the ability for players to use multi-accounts poses a problem.  So I think some form of game control would be in place, but a choice a provided and there is a level of trust to be involved with the Group Leader.

[SysOpPsyche]

you could try using a Mechwarrior Mercenaries style contract(with options) for the pop-up with a loot market for undeclared distribution.

[Hamilton]

*Cough*

Mercenaries, Blazing Ace's...  never heard of 'em

/Whistle

[Antyriel]

A big question I have is will the loot in this game be player-made or dropped from NPCs.

To clarify, take the initial release of WoW.

Yes, there was crafting, but at lvl 60, the best stuff could only be found from raiding, not from making the items.

Eve Online:

Everything is player made. You see a ship? That is player made. Yes, there are some named items, but the best items are all player made. (Some exceptions)

I understand NPC drops in a fantasy scene. (You need to kill the King of the Metal-Dragon-Wizard people to get his sword.)

I don't really understand them in a "realistic" game. (If I drop the leader of some merc faction, yea his mech may be well built, but I doubt his guns fire magic fire-balls at me.) As such, I would expect his guns to be found in other places.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[Beovvulf]

A big question I have is will the loot in this game be player-made or dropped from NPCs.

I don't really understand them in a "realistic" game. (If I drop the leader of some merc faction, yea his mech may be well built, but I doubt his guns fire magic fire-balls at me.) As such, I would expect his guns to be found in other places.

Well, we are talking salvage and not necessarily loot like in other games.

Your loot will be the weapons or components that survive the damage dealt to take the mech down.  So if the mech was equipped with a player made weapon and it survives it should be salvageable.  Now whether you can get the weapon replicated or not is another issue so you may wind up with just that one unique weapon.

It could be possible for that unique weapon to wind up on "the black market" (AH) and therefore purchasable also but since it was made by one of your opposing corporations the weapon would have to be stolen, salvaged, or the maker uninterested in keeping it a corporate secret.  Cross corporate sales is another topic of discussion somewhere in all these threads.

[Gremora]

Hmm.  .  .    Beovvulf is correct in saying the loot will be salvaged items from a down boss.    What everyone is forgetting is that so a mech part/weapon survived the attack.    So what?  If the first person to get to the mech and click on it first wouldn't his/her salvaging or any other technical skills come into play as to what items become salvagable?  Clicking on a boss and boom these items are the loot is pretty lame for this game with all those skills they want us to use.     
By having the first person to get to the boss and click on it a window should pop up to let others know it is being salvaged by this person.    Then what ever skill his/her has will determine the loot that is available?  The devs could then in the back ground have certain items require certain lvl of salvaging skill required to get certain parts with a percentage.   If you get a low salvaging skill person to loot the boss then the items that are looted may not be very valuable or many (i. e. : lots of slavagable armor, rations, pieces of junks, a decent weapon or component).   The devs then could have it where the rest is destroyed in the salvage unless someone with a significant higher skill can then try and see if they can salvage additional items with a low percentage due to the first person's bungling.  

Well that's  my 2 cents.