Free to Play (F2P) Discussion Thread

[Perseus Myrmidon]

seems to me that EVE has it right in this reguard.  You have a 14 day trial, you can learn the basics and fully enjoy the game.  SOME skills and ships are closed to you.  There is also a social stigma attached when looking for a corp to join.  ("oh, your on a trial account").

14 days should be long enough to get involved in the game, meet a few folks and possibly even effect the world.  Then you should be hooked and willing to pay per month.

As for the rate and difficulties to pay. . . one month would be the cheapest, sucessive months purchased a the same time would be even more economical.

Start at $11. 99 for one month for example, then the option to buy two months at 19. 99, three for 29. 99 ect.  Consider $11. 99 to be a reasonable ammount for the company and consumer.  If that means you don't get coffee during the week then so be it, you still get a kick ass game.

I very much like the option of a lifetime subscrption option.  But it shouldn't be offered right away, or to everyone.  Take it like so:

After your first 6 months and every 6 months you are offered a lifetime subscription for $150. 00.  If you say no then you p2p per month for another 6 months when you are offered another buy in chance.

I would like to see those that are active right away at the begining. . . the founding players as it were. . . be given some special consideration.  Mayhaps a discounted lifetime subscription after 6 months.

[Antyriel]

I think that free to play should be limited to trial accounts.

For this, I would say top the combat rating (tonnage) that a trial account can use. Cap it's skills. But, allow it a new player experience that would allow the player to be hooked on the game.

Also, I would recommend making the trial about 2-3 weeks. 1 week is too short, (Player may not have a lot of time to play, and therefore won't get hooked) a month seems too long (Don't want people saying, "I would do that, but still on trial).

It's a difficult task to do, but I would try to make the trial account fun and exciting, while still making the player want more.

You could also put some ads in the trial account.

[AkomoCombine]

First off id like to say hello to the community. Ive been listening in about this session and heres my take on this issue- a monthly fee is a fair price with a 6 month, yearly option. I currently play 4 different MMOs and pay for one. I wont pay for items like weapons or armor that can alter the balance of the game due to someone having piles of cash. Now for skins or items that dont have any effect on gameplay,sure no problem.
There are very few Free to play games that are any good out there. Micro transactions,well i might as well pay a monthly fee. Founding players should be given some type of consideration for a 6 month or yearly/lifetime membership. Expansions can be released to still be purchased. I still have my LOTRO account and i still buy their expansions.

[Lojik]

hey all,

I have been playing MMO's for the last 12 years or so on and off and from my experience both models work exceptionally well.

Take Anarchy Online for instance, the game is essentially FTP but it is also P2P.

AO was my first MMO and I played for around 7 years before quitting, what kept me playing (and paying), well that was the community, also it was the cost, the system which is now used by most if not all large MMO companies is reduced cost for paying more upfront.  I used to pay for a year at a time with AO, I think it cost me 9% a month which is awesome.

There are benefits and downsides to both models but I think combining them can create a great community within a game, the FTP players who can't really afford to pay monthly or are too young to do so get to play or at least try the game, the people who don't mind paying get allot more items and area's to explore but it has no major effect to the game play of the game, in AO even if you were a FTP player you could still do very well against P2P players in both combat and skills.

this is certainly not a section of your game you want to take lightly, making the wrong decision here or changing it half way through can break the community of a game and sink it, RF Online with Codemasters is a good example.

My thoughts on RMT's or item shops are 2 sided, if the items gained do not tip the balance "too" far to the RMT players then I have no problems with it, but when you can start obtaining items or equipment that force all other players to follow suit or die then its a NONO for me. 
I have seen some player shops work extremely well and most fall like a brick on the player who cant afford much.

One system I thought would work really well but haven't see yet is this:

The game costs lets say $5 a month to play, for this $5 you get 5000 credits, or what ever the in game RMT currency is, there is shops around the map or in game that you can buy items or equipment or consumables for those credits, now players who want to spend a little extra can buy an extra $10 worth of credits per month and get more currency to spend in these shops, of course the items or consumables would have to be monitored but it would allow the low budget players to play and also the higher budget players to get a little more out of there hard earned cash.

which ever option you choose just think of the long term recuperations of each choice and you'll be fine

Regards
L

[teufelich]

F2P vrs P2P vrs ITM

the biggest debate from gamers vrs devs

Bottom Line everyone has to keep in mind is Money.
If a game is F2P devs are obviously not gunna earn squat and be yelled at the whole time to fix stuff: this fails because devs will starve and die then gamers have a game crumbling to pieces
ITM's are ok... as listening to the podcast#4 I agree that buying the uber armor, best weapons puts the game in favor of those that have $$$ or know where mommy and daddy's credit cards are.  But, as mentioned Skin upgrades, name changes, character moves from one account to another, social items, etc this works cause it does not change the overall game itself.
P2P is always the only thing that keeps a game running.  Devs can eat, they are motivated to listen, and gamers don't have to clean up the dead dev's.  Downfall is that this cuts out TONS of gamers.

All 3 systems have been put into effect, all 3 are used in one form or another.  Lets not leave out Time Cards <or games that you pay for x amount of hours>.  That however is micro management and unfortunately a server doesn't care how many it caters too as long as the power is on.  And, it is not like they can shut down A server just because you are not playing, it has to stay on for the others that are still playing.  So this would be a waste of everyone's time to try and chase down, including wasted code to check time stamps every 15, 30, 60 friggin mins... more server lag.

P2P = small player force, but paying player force
F2P = large player force, but more maintenance
ITM = Holiday and Special occasions to generate income, and in all honesty, for xmas I get a kiss from my wife, a hug from my kid, and my very own bottle of whiskey... neither pays for that uber armor

here is an idea that I have not seen on any decent online game system:

(this is whole package so read all first, not 1 piece in part alone)

1) 30 day free trial (limited small mechs, light vehicles, you are dog fodder, but not limiting character development)
2) end of 30 days buy game pack (or client pack in this matter?) where its 1 time purchase of $40-60, you get unlimited play, but stuck to dog fodder limitations (see #1 above)
3) end of 30 days option to do P2P at price = opt#2 but translated to months paid:
....... If monthly is say $10, and Pack is $60, then this option you pay 6 months up front, and then the monthly payments kick in
4) ITM, for that really cool black trench coat to wear in the bar, cause your armor stinks and is sweaty, or you dont like the dessert brown color your mech has and want bright florescent green so everyone knows who killed them.

/close concept

Now I am not sure how this would play in with the tournament side I listened too, and no not done listening to all pod casts, But this gives a way for people that like the game and no means of doing monthly a chance to still have the game after the free trial.  Plus, even if you cant have that big 100ton battlemech you wanted, that really awesome camo black scout mech parked out front does feel a tad better than the dirt brown one sitting next to it.  though it is not 1 point better.

thus leaving the proven game mechanics in place for those not paying every month and dev's do not have to worry about their complaints, and can focus more on those paying all the time where when Upgrading their Heavy Assault mech it all of a sudden goes faster than a dirtbike but cant carry any weapons.

this also expands the game to those that have been hurt by current economy a chance that when they have a few extra $$$'s they can join in but not worry bout monthly payments.

I do not know if you all have decided on Payment Options yet, if so then ignore, if not something to consider.
This is all bassed off of mechanics I heard you all mention using trial periods and pay to play.

[khornz]

well i'm new here but i say p2p is the way to go but mabey just have an element of F2p in it.  For e. g.  mabey restrict to one free account and every other account on that will have to be payed for.  Or Restricting certain items.  either in a sense of buying them with real cash or only avalible to those who pay monthly.

khornz

[Spleenslitta]

i'm for the P2P, 14 day trial option and maybe a severly limited RMT which was mentioned earlier in the thread- No items that will give you an edge in combat or anything else.
Just skins and other fluff items.

i don't mind advertisement as long as it dissapears when i get a paying account. With the trials i say that they must be contained to the beginners area, only local chat channels and the possible rookie help channel should be useable by those on trial.

[Enkidu]

As someone who has played mmos for years I have to say a great many of them I would never have bought had they had a free trial.   I think something akin to eve with the 14 day free trial would be a good investment.   Many people will enjoy the game and want to buy it if they have a chance to play it. 

Think about it, a Mech MMO.   Sounds awesome but I believe many people will be on the fence about it.   Its not like its ever been done in a serious fashion before.   With most free account in a p2p game there are limits to where you can go or how high you can level or even what gear you can use.   If your looking to get people in the game who wouldn't normally play then a free trial is the way to go. 

On the other hand though as some have brought up RMT will be an issue possibly depending on how the free accounts are able to handle the currency.   A simple fix would be to restrict trading with or buying/selling from a free trial account. 

My vote is free trial with restrictions, though not in regards to battle, just with the equipment they can use.  And P2P game.

I am not opposed to selling "fluff" as long as its only for aesthetics.  I play League of Legends a lot and even though its free I have spent money for the different skins available. 

[Helis]

Listen to me please devs. Just make it free to play with an ingame cash shop for exclusive items such as buffs or paint schemes. Then add surveys for your own special "force of arms cash" that can be purchased using real money or by filling out the surveys. Works brilliantly for many mmorps but if you make it p2p you will lose a huge player base. See combat arms's cash shop if you need a model.

Helis

[xXx]

Listen to me please devs. Just make it free to play with an ingame cash shop for exclusive items such as buffs or paint schemes. Then add surveys for your own special "force of arms cash" that can be purchased using real money or by filling out the surveys. Works brilliantly for many mmorps but if you make it p2p you will lose a huge player base. See combat arms's cash shop if you need a model.

Helis

While I admit, F2P vs P2P plays into how I buy games, it's not the determining factor.  I look for content, community, and modibility.  While very few P2P allow for modibility or custom content, very few F2P have great content or a decent community.  The real trick is finding the happy medium.  I would say if monthly, yearly, or lifetime memberships were offered, you'll get a large amount of people willing to buy lifetime memberships, i.e.: Star Trek Online.  Also finding the right price for monthly and yearly memberships will help.  Many people don't want to pay $15-$20 a month, but what about $5-$7 a month.  With say a 20% discount off the price of 12 monthly payments for the yearly membership.

Another option is to provide the cheap monthly, yearly, lifetime memberships for say 2 years.  At the end of two years it could be reevaluated as to whether it continues as a P2P service or moved to a F2P service, based on whether the subcount is substantial enough to support the product off of other income methods.

In any case, the Devs must do what is right for them, the company, and the players, not just one of those 3 aspects.

[Zerbula]

AAGGGHHH!!!

I have played a couple MMO's for a while, One I found rather effective had a system with a level restriction flat across the board. It would like of be like...

F2P would have access to the lowest 30% of all weaponrey
F2P would be limited to standard tech (or lower) systems
F2P charater abilites would be limited to 1/2 effectiveness at there max
F2P would have access to Standard mechs up to about 75 tons
F2P would have full interaction with P2P players
F2P would Have to follow specific orders/commands/rules or be demoted/shut down/disabled/killed
( ^ This one would be fun... P2P giving F2P orders in a large-scale battle...  )

If there was a P2P player who for one reason or another ended there subscription, they drop down to these standards, and all P2P content could be 'stored' within a company storage untill reactivated. Of course this equitment could be sold for credits to buy F2P mechs/weaponrey/armour.

Conversely, if a F2P moved up to a P2P, he would have access to larger mechs, higher powered weaponrey, and higher level technoligy.


I like the idea of a restricted access though still playable system by free players, though I don't think It will happen, It would be nice. we certanly would have a huge, and possibley player-commanded battles 

[teufelich]

hmmm lets make a long thread longer.

ok so few bullet points as overalls for whats been discussed:

game concepts posted and taken into account (or so i think the devs have chewed on)
Eve, AO, Evercrack, FinalFantasyOnline (think was mentioned), and many more

Concepts of these:
x amount of days for free then have to P2P
Free gets lower end gear, P2P gets everything
Micromanagement: everyone gets the same stuff but you can buy boosts, benefits, better gear, social etc
Free gets limited, p2p gets everything, BUT if you have paid for subscription, that character you created during ur subscription still gets all the benifits (lotro)


one system that was mentioned, at one point by a dev and referred to by a poster, Entropia
I honestly had overlooked this system and forgot to mention it as Entropia stands alone in many ways, but almost falls into micromanagement.
With Entropia you can BUY in game creds using Real Life money.  This is directly approved by the game devs.
THE CATCH: if you do not pay for creds you will find yourself in short supply for good gear.  The high end gear you can not support UNLESS you have cash influx.
I had played Entropia for over 6 months while i was working 20+hrs over time.  Figure i was dumping 10 usd a week, 40 usd a month avg.  A friend of mine that was playing a LOT was dumping 25 usd a week, 100usd a month.  Guess who had the better gear to support.

Entropia from the beginning is a money sink and setup accordingly if you want high end gear.



I list this as recently my friend moved back to Entropia (gotta love gamers that cant settle on something) and thought I should share what my previous experience was.

I am not full heart-idly for this type of system as in order to use the best gear it costs a lot of ingame $$$ to support it and you can not generate that as a player.  (entropia has merchant side of course and is not as easy to start up as most would think)
Yet something similar to it is not discouraged by me.

I can go into greater detail but I think this is sufficient for my FYI to those that have not played nearly the same amount of decent MMO's (and a lot of crappy ones)

[Spleenslitta]

in the beginning i thought the Entropia game you mentioned had a cash shop Teufelich, but on a second read that ain't quite it.
it's more like- Pay to get access to higher tech levels right? i feel like you just told me a horror story Teufelich and i'm scared out of my mind 
i would much rather just have a simple P2P. 

Hmmm..maybe the dev's should try the P2P with skin/fluff-cashshop model first, but if that doesn't work out they can change it to something else.

[teufelich]

just for a refresh i dumped 10 into entropia today.

ok so cash shop not exactly.

Current rate is 10 usd = 100ped (cred) and they do count to 0.01

you can buy 100"ped" using a credit card, paypal etc.

They have upgraded since i last played to the Cyrsis engine 2... revamp of the main world but not that much better looking and they still have the major crysis memory leak issue.  AKA game will crash at unkown points due to RAM being full.

Now with all that they do NOT charge you to play at all.  You can get the greatest, Badest, Biggest, and now with trucks, suvs, helicopters and more.

Sounds enticing doesn't it?


AS i mentioned before there is no way to fully support yourself in the game playing by their mechanics.
I put 10usd in this morning.  Spent 4hrs on and off killing mobs and training skills up.  Selling loot which is 1 outa 4 mobs... maybe.  and anything worth while is rare.  so rare in fact some people that have played for over 4 yrs have never found some stuff in the database.
The question of how Entropia survives even though you dont have to pay... the 5yr study done by few reveals that on avg you might get a 70-80% return.  mostly lower.
Now you figure say 10usd spent and dump it all in ammo.  Go out use every round (couple hundred maybe a thousand) and when you go back in to sell your loot and buy ammo with your spoils you got about 7-8usd worth now.
next round you looking at about 5usd
next round you looking 2-3
and then you trickle from there.
Now soak in the fact it costs you to kill stuff, all your armor and weaps have deprecation.  so soak another 5-10% out of that 70-80% and you looking at a 60-75% return per every outing.

there is 1 way to go totally free to pay in entropia.  "Sweating"  Every animal sweats and you can collect it.  You cant sell it to the shop terminals, its used for crafting.  100 sweat = .2ped.  so to make 10 cents you have to collect 500 bottles of sweat.  takes aprox 1hr per 100.  Also note you can not fight hand to hand in this game unless you buy combat gloves Aprox 2usd or 20ped.  So while you are collecting sweat you can get killed.  if you are weaing armor it will get damaged.


ok after that ramble one should figure that you get a 70-80% return on anything you put into it.
Also it takes hours or even an entire week to be able to get enough for a weekend raid.
Mining wasnt mentioned, the returns are worse.
Crafting is same as mining.

heres the secret to playing Entropia:
for every 30 minutes you PLAY in entropia it takes 6 hrs of farming AKA: grinding to support it, or a credit card.


===================================================================================

as i said before having a direct in game feature for getting cash into the game would be cool.
But, my preference unlike entopia would not be a 20% loss on investment that can get siphoned out in less than an hour.
thus it would take a lot of tweaking and balancing in order to handle it.

the upside to what Entropia has is there is no gold farmers and 3rd party companies selling gold in game.
--old report about 4yrs ago, WOWGOLD invested 1000usd and sent 10 of their players in.  Entropia found out and thanked them for their money.  10 players with 100usd = 1000ped and in 2 weeks were totally broke and could not buy a single round of ammunition.  <report was removed 1 week after wowgolds review>

my opinion if something like this were to be implemented let us at least beat the crap out the mobs and get loot with our bear hands.

personally not a system i like to PLAY a game.  I like to play to have fun like most everyone else.  Doesnt mean that FOA couldnt use a touch of this to their advantage though.

[dude1744]

Ok, P2P&Monthly Fee is a widley used scam.  Why should I pay over and over for the same thing? Make it a one time purchase like guild wars, just jack the price up to around fifty bucks.